Western Energy Capitol–Making the Most of What We’ve Got
Friday, July 30th, 2010Author Steve Foste
Do you really need a PhD in Energy to understand the solution to the energy problem? Do you have to be a lobbyist to line the pockets of the politicians to get anything done? Or do we have to go to the elitist to develop the system of energy control so they can control society to build out the needs of the future energy needs of this nation?
Let’s look at what is available and what can save this nation in the form or energy:
First of all Nuclear energy is not the dinosaur it was 30 years ago. Nuclear is safe clean and efficient and we have the resources and uranium deposits to fuel this program. There is really no reason not to build out a Nuclear Energy system in country. Is it expensive? Not when oil reaches 200 dollars a barrel and people still want to drive their cars, not if they want to keep the lights on and heat in their homes.
Natural Gas technology already exist, just as UPS, they run a whole fleet of trucks on natural gas and I would bet that 90 percent of the public don’t even know that theses truck run on natural gas. The argument is that we don’t have the infrastructure for such a system. If a mandate were to come out of Washington to move all commercial trucking to natural gas by 2020 it would stimulate the entire economy overnight and the government wouldn’t have to spend a dime.
Coal! We have coal coming out of our ears and we want to shut it down. These people are crazy coal is the foundation of electricity in this country. If you don’t tax the crap out of them and continue to implement new regulations daily and develop and build on a logical clean coal program, give them breaks to research technology to clean it up and make environmentally sound programs that can be enforce honestly, the industry will take care of itself.
Shale oil? It is coming but their needs to be incentives in technology to make it work. Provide programs to find solutions. Funny how private industry is moving to get us into space without government interference. I wonder when we will have the space travel tax and regulation after the first few tourists are killed. Murphy’s Law is at play here. Not that we could put in the failsafe system first, they will wait until there is a tragedy to regulate the industry.
Wind and solar have come a long way, plant those windmill from the Gulf of Mexico to the Canadian border. Expensive yes, efficient, will be when the oil is gone. Solar could be good there is just no real demand. The cost will come down and technology will improve if we were to mandate specific amounts of solar to be installed on new projects, and incentive for individual to add solar to existing properties. It just needs to economically viable; if there is demand for the product it will become more efficient and more money will flow to research.
Oil? Drill baby drill, onshore and off shore and that is all I have to say about that.
Ok, Texas Ringers, I live in Colorado, we have shale oil, we have wind, we have sun, we can build Nuclear energy, and Texas has all the above plus oil, Wyoming has coal plus the above, South and North Dakota have the Balkan reserves, I’m not up to date on New Mexico and Arizona. Here is the plan, we all get together and build the energy capitol of the Nation. Texas, New Mexico, Maybe Arizona, Colorado, Kansas, Nebraska, North and South Dakota and take control of this situation. Oh did I mention all the agriculture, wheat, corn, beef, hogs etc that come out of this region.
I don’t think these states realize how much control they really have over the energy recourses of this country as well as food products. They alone could bring this country back to prosperity.
Regards,
Steve Fosste
for The Texas Ring
Related posts:
Desertrat says:
July 31st, 2010
3:15 am
A few caveats:
The OilDrum.com is a worthwhile website to add to your favorites list. Lots of professional expertise contributes there.
On Biomass: http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6641 , http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6704 , and http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6758
On Oil shale and tar sands: The processing requires a lot of water. Yes, there have been advances in recycling capability in the efforts with tar sands, but the fact remains that the water demand competes with other demands–such as irrigation and domestic/industrial. When ores are found in desert country…
On wind units: Environmentally friendly? Hardly. I won’t get into visual pollution. First ya gotta strip mine the bauxite and then ship it to the reduction plant where a lot of electricity is needed to reduce the bauxite to alumina. Then a lot of electricity is needed to turn the alumina into aluminum. A wind unit’s foundation takes about a hundred yards of concrete, so there’s strip mining for limestone and the a lot of electricity to make cement. 25 4-yard truck loads per wind unit, takes a good bit of diesel–on the cross-country service road needed for each wind unit. The work area is about an acre or so of land rendered nearly useless for agriculture.
If you have Google Earth, go to the east side of Corpus Christi Bay and work east until you see some very large square leveed areas. Those are slag areas of a square mile or more from a bauxite reduction project. Electricity prices rose in the early 1970s, so Reynolds dropped some 2,000 jobs when they closed the operation. But we’re still making aluminum, right? Slag areas elsewhere, I imagine. Just part of the environmental cost of being environmentally pure.
Two blades make a load for a flat-bed semi-trailer. 100 feet of the support pieces make a load. Takes a lot of diesel just to haul the pieces to the worksite.
Then you have the copper, aluminum and steel for the gathering and transmission lines to take electricity to a use point–with miles of (unpaved) service road along the route.
I note here that a major objection to drilling for oil and gas on public lands is the service roads required for access to the well sites.
Also note that wind units, at roughly 1.3 MW each, “use up” around 2,000 acres in order to equal the amount of electricity from the same size of nuke plant which occupies very few acres.
If I have to pay double for electricity, I’d just as soon it came from a lower environmental impact process–including visual pollution.
On nukes: The law requires an Environmental Impact Statement (EIS). This is an area wherein I have some professional expertise. Basically, my question is, what can be learned that is not already known? I omit archaeological discoveries. Any major contruction project has already had impacts, and they are obvious. What will be new and different about another major construction project? So, known. Hazards? Known. Etc., etc., etc., ad infinitum ad nauseum.
Nuff fer now; more coffee…
‘Rat
Lynne says:
July 31st, 2010
5:07 pm
Great idea and I agree, but instead of passing Cap & Trade the Interior department and the EPA are canceling all permits and adding regulations. Plus canceling the storage of any Nuclear waste, I believe the feds shut down Yucca Mountain about 3 months ago. Now the feds are trying to buy up land in the Great Basin and the Rockies to make them wilderness, national parks and “protected” areas.
I’m a conservationist and not an environmentalist. I’d love to be able to use all the Geo-thermal energy we have around here. I could probably do a solar and geothermal set up that would provide most of the energy for my home and be independent of the grid. But I can’t afford the investment of $20,000.00 for geothermal and at least another $20,000-35,000 for the cost of retrofitting and drilling.
I can just imagine the cost on homeowner’s insurance for solar panels after a hail storm.
Steve Foste says:
August 1st, 2010
4:02 am
Lynne,
Agreed with all you wrote. Therein lies the problem, environmentalist, and don’t get me wrong I like clean water and don’t want to destroy everythng. But the government and environmentalist have there heads in the sand. Times and the world has changed and we need to move forward with solutions. Just as you have solutions. A bit costly I agree. As for hail I don’t think companies would be building theses huge solar fields if they have’t figured out how to overcome that problem, but maybe the just figure it as mainenance.
Is everyone aware that three mile Island is operational again.
Tex Norton says:
August 3rd, 2010
9:50 am
Considering basic physics and thermodynamics, EVERYTHING in the universe is energy at some level. We’re just not smart enough (yet) to know how to convert that static energy into useful kinetic energy. My personal opinion is that cold fusion will ultimately end the energy wars once and for all.
Tex
Lynne says:
August 3rd, 2010
5:42 pm
Now Tex you are being logical. Now most folks on the left” Feel” things are true. They are ruled by emotion and not logic. They want stuff to be “Fair”. Grow up!! you don’t get what you want simply cause you want it. I want a hot tub, should I get it simply cause I want it? Should anyone else pay for it?
No I’ll work for it and prioritize it. I’ll get what I want cause i save for it. I don’t deserve your pity or help there are far more worse off than me. I notice many are inspired by Stephen Hawking and admire his battle against ALS. Thank god he is in GB and we don’t have to pay his medical expenses. Funny he doesn’t go to British NHS “Emergency rooms”. As your average non-celebrity has to do. Well it’s “free” medical care what do you expect? That is the problem cause it’s not free you will be paying the US gov in your taxes.
Lynne says:
August 3rd, 2010
7:12 pm
Now for me to have fun as a Dictator and given unlimited power I would pull all folk over seas back to the USA. Pump up the navy air force and missle command, and limit the ground pounders to our borders. I’d give them the mission of securing our borders. How is left up to them all they have to obey the “Law of Land warfare” If we have to adjust we’ll adjust. All forces are pulled out of the middle east gulf and are stationed in Israel. I know most Muslims find infidels in they’re Holy land repugnant. So we’ll stage out of Israel. So you must create a democracy wear women can drive and are not stoned for rape or not wearing a Burkah. Until then we will not trade with you. Eat your oil, we will burn our food for fuel. Because we are like that….
Desertrat says:
August 4th, 2010
5:14 pm
I’d rather look at one nuke plant covering ten or twenty acres, than look at an equivalent-output 1,000 or 2,000 wind units covering an acre or two each, plus the service roads. Aside from the visual pollution, there’s overall less environmental degradation from a nuke, including the production of materials therefor.
Long-term, natural gas is far more important as a raw material for consumer products, rather than being using in generating electricity. All that’s needed as a transportation fuel is the re-fuelling infrastructure. But, probably better reserved for transitioning into mechanized farming use and for home heating.
The water demand for processing of tar sands to oil has been eased by new methods of re-cycling, but the demand still competes with other uses. For oil shale, given its desert location, the competition from agriculture and municipal use is even stronger.
(Remember when “Pizeance Creek” was still called “Pissant Creek”? They had to clean up the name for public consumption, back in the 1970s. The USGS has a little old granny lady in tennie-runners who pores over old topographic sheets, searching for place names which need sanitizing.)
Coal? IMO it will remain important, in spite of the edicts of the Obaminators. Regrettably, however, its use will always produce emissions of particulates, SO2 and radioactive material.
Desertrat says:
August 4th, 2010
5:18 pm
Weird: I looked earlier at this thread and my initial post wasn’t there. Now I see it. Oh, well…
If some Person With Power cares to do some deleting, that seems like a Good Thing.
Lynne says:
August 5th, 2010
7:32 pm
I think what the “conservationist” did was great back in the 60’s and 70’s. The “Clean Air Act” was need and was a huge success. We have reduced air pollution by 85% since the 70’s in spite of growing population. The Hudson river burned back in the 70’s and it’s clean enough now that folks can walk on the banks. Chesapeake Bay you can fish and swim in the waters. The Great Lakes are vastly improved. We in the USA can afford to care about the environment. Gosh just Google “China and Pollution” and become afraid.
I get really tired of the “green kooks” that say the USA is evil for using natural resources in a sane and sustainable manner. Yet buy solar panels and wool sweaters from China and don’t think about what it does to the land.
Yes BP got a pass in the government, they are a “Green Company”. They were moving “Beyond Petroleum” They supported the green agenda unlike all those other evil oil companies that had a couple of “minor” 12 minor violations in 8 companies, while BP had violations around 700.
Now the US government want us to believe all gulf food is safe. The same folks that add Ammonia to hamburger to kill Ecoli and salmonella without telling the consumer. But you better not buy raw milk. It’s bad for you. Thank you USDA I feel safer already.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 6th, 2010
3:14 am
AMMONIA in whose hamburger? Somebody fill me in on this quickly, please!
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 6th, 2010
3:17 am
I’m trying to get up the energy to write an article entitled, “Should cows be allowed to produce raw milk?” Tony would do it better. Lynne, I looked on Craig’s List in Idaho and there were several hot tubs on sale. If you have someone who could pick one up and set it up for you that could be a solution. Hugs to all, Linda
Kurt says:
August 6th, 2010
11:41 am
Linda, this ain’t the 1930’s anymore: one should not question what is in the food they eat, if they wish to keep eating it…….
I found that calf milk replacement here, and I had to wade through it. Anybody else who wants to try it should read CAREFULLY!!! In most I found things like tetracycline. I’m going to have to go with a 50lb bag in order to avoid all of that. But it does look like it could prove to be a good source of protein, especially vac packed. I’m thinking it could be added into things to supplement protein intake.
Desertrat says:
August 6th, 2010
4:40 pm
I’m certainly a supporter of the concepts of NEPA ‘69, but a lot of the “one size fits all” regulations are amusing.
Dunno how many of you remember the brouhaha over detergents with phosphate. Those were partly to blame for Lake Erie pretty much going dead from algae. Okay, so they come out with the more-expensive and less efficient low-phosphate detergent.
Trouble is, a lot of rural folks let gray water go to flowers, shrubs and bushes around the house. Hey, low-phosphate means less fertilization for the growies!
I recall that the Cuyahoga caught fire; melted a bridge which spanned it.
A problem with many of today’s Greenies is that they have no idea how far we’ve progressed since the 1950s/1960s in “de-polluting”. For instance, in 1968 you could not see downtown Houston’s tall buildings from more than three or four miles away. By 1975 they were clearly visible from the revolving restaurant at the intercontinental airport, some twenty miles north of downtown.
Lynne says:
August 7th, 2010
4:43 pm
I look for the info Ammonia maybe added to hamburger in order to kill harmful bacteria. The USDA in it’s infinate wisdom said that it did not have to be added to the ingredient list.
Officials at the United States Department of Agriculture endorsed the company’s ammonia treatment, and have said it destroys E. coli “to an undetectable level.” They decided it was so effective that in 2007, when the department began routine testing of meat used in hamburger sold to the general public, they exempted Beef Products.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/31/us/31meat.html
Lynne says:
August 7th, 2010
4:58 pm
Sorry Linda I the company name is Beef inc.
Desertrat says:
August 10th, 2010
10:40 am
“I’m trying to get up the energy to write an article entitled, “Should cows be allowed to produce raw milk?” — LBT
If God had intended for people to drink raw milk, he’d have enabled mothers to nurse their infants.
Oh, wait…
Cheri says:
August 11th, 2010
7:52 am
Rat-Hehehe! Love it. How we let people in full-blown panic attacks make decisions effecting all of us, I will never know.
Linda, can’t wait for the article….
Cheri
Oldmanriver says:
August 11th, 2010
8:18 am
Everyone,
A question, if eating raw food is so good for you (it is because the act of cooking destroys nutrients, enzymes etc) why do you cook meat? Why stop at milk? Properly processed and stored all food could be eaten raw and it would be better for you. Eat everything raw. Look at your food stocks that you have stored. Long term storage of food has a negative effect on nutrients etc as well. The process of dehydration has a negative effect. Anything you do to food after the organism has died has a negative effect. Considering the ratio of all other non raw food being eaten compared to milk. I would say that all the other food has a greater effect on us than the little amount of milk thats being eaten with some wheaties every day.
Look back at the reasons milk started being pasturized. We had diseases like typhoid, tuburculosis etc etc which killed many people. We dont have those diseases in the numbers that we used to, at least in the USA. The big part of that is due to things like pasturization. Everyone has forgotten the bad old days where many people died young. Now should people be allowed to buy raw milk? Sure its your life you should be able to to risk it if you want. My dad drank raw milk most of his childhood. He is not any worse for wear, but the source of the milk was about 30 yards away from the house and what they didnt drink that day got thrown out or fed to something else as the cow produced much more than what was needed. As you increase the distance from the cow to the person actually drinking it, the risk of contamination goes up.
I would think that raw milk handled correctly would be lower risk for disease and that some sort of standards could be put into place to keep the consumer safe. What I disagree with is that drinking raw milk is going to make everyone into disease free supermen. Its not going to cure cancer or diabetes. What we are talking about is not heating milk up to 160 degrees for a few seconds and then chilling it. If its so bad we need to outlaw hot chocolate and well done steaks. Anytime that milk is used in cooking is putting you at risk.
Oldmanriver says:
August 11th, 2010
8:47 am
All,
Here is a link where beef products inc describes its process. BTW you really cant tell if they add ammonia in small amounts or not. When protein breaks down it forms ammonia. You are eating ammonia regardless.
http://www.beefproducts.com/the_process/index.cfm
Lynne says:
August 11th, 2010
3:15 pm
OMR I’m not saying that being safe in food production is unwise. We have become an urban society for good or bad is for others to argue. I grew up on “whole milk” strait from the MOO. It was a good dairy that practiced good sanitation. Pasteurization kills good as well as bad bacterias. I love canning, smoking and salting. I want to do it in the safest manner possible. I work very hard to make my foods safe. Heck I’m eating it myself. If you can prove someone like Tyson will care as much as your average gardener or meat raiser and not buy insurance against “food borne illness”. I may buy it. But on my Salmon smoke I got quick frozen salmon, I filleted and salted under refrigeration and I smoked all within food service guidelines. Then froze again just in case. My life and my health is at stake, I pay attention. Funny I gave away jerky to folks (painted my home) and smoked salmon. Was I lucky or did I practice good hygiene?
I’m not saying you are wrong but I lived in Europe for years and they have “Natural” laws on several products from veggies to beer and I never got sick. Even during a hoof and mouth disease to mad cow. I do have issue with the feed. But I’ll give them being quick to contain stuff.
Lynne says:
August 11th, 2010
3:20 pm
Plus after 5 years I am not allowed to give blood. I do have an auto immune disease so I may never give blood again. No worries I’d never want someone blind sided with this disease. I want to help folks I’ll give food fuel and money. All the contamination is on you now.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 11th, 2010
8:31 pm
Dear Kurt: Good save, and we always have to read the labels. How does the price per ounce for a 50# bag compare to other choices? I’m not thinking of using it as a milk replacer in the sense of having a nice glass of cold milk (we all know that’s what goats are for!) but as a source of protein for shakes or to work into meatloaf or biscuits or whatever. Concentrated nutrition, y’know.
GOSH it’s good to be back! Y’all are my loves over here, and I’m not neglecting you out of choice or through boredom. Gary is threatening to quit or brooding W&G will be shut down, which requires sympathy and common sense, and I’m writing daily for the Mesh Report–and need comments, please! Steve F. has been magnificent about that.
Again…TMR is NOT more important to me than the Ring is, but I have to have a connection to a much bigger mailing list to keep the Ring in people’s eyes. I LOVE writing for Mesh, of course! Great people, I’m still doing pretty much W&G/TTR type articles, and the rest of them write about charting and technical analysis. The reason I don’t answer your comments when they are sent to me directly is that we all love reading what the others say. BIG hugs to all!
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 11th, 2010
8:32 pm
Rat, love, I do NOT regard being able to see Houston as a benefit!
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 11th, 2010
8:34 pm
Thanks, Lynne? Good God. AMMONIA in the beef? Charles is in there dealing with ground Angus chuck that is so “moist” it won’t shape into hamburger patties!
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 11th, 2010
8:35 pm
Cheri, isn’t the Rat clever?!
Lynne says:
August 11th, 2010
8:36 pm
No gay agenda On my part and force folks to take my blood or have it hidden by the red cross, Well I’m so happy that you will take all folks blood despite all those microobes and bacteria. I’m sure some will be proud. in some way…
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 11th, 2010
8:38 pm
OMR…Steak tartar is wonderful if you trust your choice. Most of us prefer our steaks and burgers medium rare. Pasteurization is for beer and does NOT prevent disease. It does change the structure of the milk in ways that are bad for human bodies, as does homogenization, which breaks what is left of the butter fat up into bits too tiny for the liver to filter out.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 11th, 2010
8:40 pm
Lynne, you know me. I don’t care that raw milk is not available in stores but I can’t see making possession a criminal offense.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 11th, 2010
8:41 pm
Lynne, dear, when you get some time let’s have a session with good old fashioned Adelle Davis type nutrition. How I wish you lived closer…we would have SUCH fun.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 11th, 2010
8:43 pm
In res blood. Mine is in constant circulation, a very good place for it. There was a time when we could have blood drawn and preserved for our own use, probably can’t do that any more…
Lynne says:
August 11th, 2010
9:50 pm
Golly Linda you are ready to fight. Charlse must have got a cookie and pointed you in the right direction. Sorry the FDA and other folks from the feds are reaking havoc and not in a good way. I am very careful on how I butcher any critter. Unlike the FDA i do not assume I can see germs on chickens. I simply slaughter then safly and package them as well for freinds and family. Now tell me I don’t care about any meat. compared to a super mart or a pump and chunk that adds ammonia. just to kill the bugs.
I hate the bastards they say raw milk is not safe yet the add ammonia to ground meat. I have a major poopy attitude toward meat packers.
Lynne says:
August 11th, 2010
10:15 pm
Linda I see us as an old aunts and grandmas society. I will make it down in Texas It may take some time. No all critters I kill I treat with respect and I work as safe as possible with meat at all times.
I do care about my critters from feed to butcher,I do care about my bunnies. Well screw the folks that think I dont care about my critters.
Lynne says:
August 11th, 2010
10:40 pm
Hell I ain’t impressed on some idiot society or the Gov. protecting me. I wart Moo juice fresh and whole. No I do have issues you can give a beef producer ammonia as an ingredient But you have an issue of milk strait from the moo. Could you tell me how you fell about breast milk? Is it good or bad? Should all milks be pasteurized or irradiated. Please tell us about the safety of critters cause we all no that the FDA and USDA and the EPA flow forth like the temple mount on data. and with about detail.
Lynne says:
August 11th, 2010
11:06 pm
I’ll never report linda or any others to the feds hell I won’t do it for booze I think I can manage for yogurt, and cheese. Well I never played well with others.
Lynne says:
August 11th, 2010
11:39 pm
We arn’t the problem Call off an average food service puke in not a problem. I’m sure linda groew her own milk and critters. The only thing I want is to walk the grounds and wonder if it is home grown milk and critters. I’ll be happy to look at bleu milk in the long run. I dont like feds in any shape whatsoever. If you want to pay those taxes its on you.
Kurt says:
August 11th, 2010
11:50 pm
I didn’t think to write it down and work it out on a calculator, and it was sort of like comparing apples to oranges because of different brands and being for different critters. Some was labeled for calves, some was labeled for multiple critters. But it did seem to me that the 50lb bag I did find that was free of antibiotics etc, was cheaper lb for lb than the rest, by a good margin.
That’s what I was thinking as well. I was thinking work it into things like mac and cheese which my posse seems to like. Mac and cheese has no nutrition in it, but adding that in could give it some, and it already has a sauce to help cover it. Soups could be another, the gravies I make, maybe even freeze it into cubes for treats lol.
All this has got one of my daughters telling me she wants a baby MOOer of her own. See what ya got me inta?
Oldmanriver says:
August 12th, 2010
7:20 am
Oh yes Linda, I have had steak tartar and I love sushi. My point was that “cooking” of any type is going to change the food that we eat. Even a medium rare steak still gets up to the 150 degree mark for much longer than the 15 seconds that milk is heated up to. Its going to have some effect. I dont understand how you can say that it dosnt prevent disease? If that is true then why do we waste time cooking food in the first place?
Oldmanriver says:
August 12th, 2010
7:57 am
Lynne,
Im not saying that you do a bad job processing food. I would trust you more than I would any corporate processor and most individuals. The problem is not everyone is like you. Say I go to a market with several individuals that I do not know, who are selling meat. All of the people have a similar looking product. I have no idea how they are processing it. One of them has been inspected and certified by a 3rd party who says they follow best management practices. Im going to go with the person that is inspected. My risk is reduced. My risk is also reduced if I cook the tar out of the meat as well. Thats why we have dishes like fried chicken. Its very difficult for harmful bacteria to survive deep fat frying if its done properly. Sure it tastes good but the reason we cook our food is to make it safe to eat. Food that is not normally cooked is handled much differently than normal food. Sushi and tartar have completely different standards they use to store and process the meat. Think about all your grandmothers cooking. Everything is cooked somehow. Ever think about why our grandparents didnt eat a lot of salads and cold food? What was served cold was processed in someway to make it less habitable for micro-organisms. What the FDA does is standardize best management practices across the industry. While I dont think that everything they do is right generally the FDA makes our food supply one of the safest in the world. Especially for the industrial food model that makes our food cheaper than most other places as well. Im not saying its all good. Growing up we raised all our own food except for flour, sugar and things like that. Most of my childhood summers were spent in the garden and helping mom out with canning. There is no better food than that. You will get no arguement from me. The thing is I dont have time or the gumption to grow all my own food and do all the things that requires. As you well know that is a ton of work. I dont ever remember my mother sleeping when I was a kid. I would wake up in the middle of the night and she would be working. I would wake up at 5 am and she would be working. She never slept, at least that I know of lol.
My whole point is can you imagine how safe our food would be if we didnt have the FDA? It would be like china where anything goes and people would be dumping chemicals in milk. Thats a nightmare scenario. Read Upton Sinclair’s The Jungle which is what prompted everythign that we have in place today.
I do think there should be some sort of parallel path for foods that consumers demand which are not part of the normal food chain. Similar to what Europe has. I have been overseas many times and have never become ill from eating anything either. Then again I was a hog farmer for many years and my immune system can withstand direct ingestion of manure and other unpleasant things.
Oldmanriver says:
August 12th, 2010
8:10 am
Kurt,
Personally I wouldnt use the milk replacer that you can buy in a feed store for human consumption. Not that it will kill you or anything, but I have mixed a lot of that stuff up in my lifetime and its different than milk. It smells, looks and tastes different than regular milk. There should be somewhere that you can buy powdered milk from the government. I know a veal producer that used it to feed to his veal calves as it was cheaper than the stuff you can buy in the feed store. At least thats the way it was a few years ago. I dont know if the government buys milk like they did in the past.
Oldmanriver says:
August 12th, 2010
8:22 am
All,
A few books I suggest reading that gives you several different viewpoints and makes you really think about our food production in this country:
Omnivore’s Dilema by Micheal Palin.
any book by wendell Berry
Oldmanriver says:
August 12th, 2010
12:40 pm
This is what I meant to say if I could spell:
The Omnivore’s Dilemma: A Natural History of Four Meals
Lynne says:
August 13th, 2010
7:34 pm
OMR I can’t get a handle on you.You know like I do most people are stupid. That can be corrected but why do you insist I have no choices because others are stupid/ignorant. I think you can make wise choices for your food and all the stuff you need I think I can do that as well. We need information not regulation. I have no problem with you getting food from any place you want. I like milk straight from the moo. I am not giving it to anyone else. I’m not forcing anyone to buy it. So why can’t I have it if I wish? I can’t have a product I want because other folks are stupid or to lazy to do research?
Choice and freedom means you take responsibility for your actions. If you want someone “safeguarding” your health you will have to pay for that service. I prefer to safeguard my own health no one will be concerned than me about it. I don’t think the FDA,USDA has as much skin in the gain about my health as I do.
So guess what I’ll butcher my own rabbits, get eggs from my Mom and food from my garden and grains from my local “Feed Mill” I won’t have to use additives like ammonia, for the profit margin.
This is not hard if you get down to basics and not politics. We all need food, a mix of protein, carbohydrates sugars and fats. Humans are omnivores we need a mix of grains and protein. It’s easy an easy mix. How you get there is on you. I do rabbits they are lean so I store extra oils, and Lard. Linda slapped around about pasta she was right so I stocked up on 40 pounds of pasta. Lots of sardines in oil. Got a Med. cook book. Yummy stuff to try out.
OMR should I not buy what I want because other folk are idiots?
Lynne says:
August 14th, 2010
12:18 am
But it know longer maters OMR what is is, I do hope you have critters on hand and no feds with red tape. When its your life and your family. I hope you can live with all the red tape. As Davy Crockett said to the Congress. “You may all go to Hell. I’m going to Texas.”
I can not best his words or sentiments.
Oldmanriver says:
August 14th, 2010
8:51 am
Lynn,
I think that you should be able to raise as much of your own food as you want. I think that if people want to go directly to a farmer and buy milk, eggs, meat etc etc they should be able to. I do not think that stuff like this should be available in stores that is unpasturized and from uninspected facilities. The problem with food is that when a consumer has a bad experience its too late to go back and make a different choice. You are already ill or worse dead. You have all these choices right now and no one is trying to stop you from having them. I want to ask you this. What is threshold number of people getting sick or dying that is acceptable to you so that you can have a choice of whatever you want in the store? All the food safety procedures that we have in place today are not even perfect as there are still outbreaks of food poisoning. Of course the fact that we cart food halfway around the world doesn’t help. But if we were to do away with government inspections and standards we would see a large increase in the number of people getting sick and or dying. It would be more than just people who are ignorant or dont understand but people who just want a decent meal. Does the average inspector have as much skin in the game as you do about your particular health? of course not, but how on earth do you go back and check out the processing standards on every single meal that you have eaten? Its impossible for you to do, there is no way you can do it by yourself. There is nothing stopping you from eating how you want to right now. There is no bill before congress to keep you from doing that either. I dont think Im disagreeing with you Lynn.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 14th, 2010
4:36 pm
Wahoo, Lynne and I are feisty! We’re sick of the interference and being treated like children by supercilious adults who line their pockets lavishly while “protecting” us. Kurt, dear, you haven’t got room for even a mini-moo cow unless you’ve found your place out in the hills, in which case I suggest (what else?!) that you start with a goat she can milk or a bottle-fed doeling. A goat who has bonded with people is a sweet, funny, insatiably curious, very loving companion who can give over a gallon of rich milk three hundred days a year or kid twice a year if you need meat more. They are so SMART! Goats will fix you with a loving stare, then look up in a tree, back to you, back to the tree, and do it as long as it takes to get you to stand up and either break off branches or pull them down to where they can reach them. They make up little games they only play with their favorites, like Evita untying Charles’ shoelaces, but ONLY his. Just any goat won’t do, mind. There are those who will get on the stand to be milked but isn’t really people oriented. When you go shopping, look for a goat that comes up politely and at leasts sniffs your hand. See how they interact with their people. Sure, so long as you can catch one and milk it she will do for milk, cheese, and producing either more mamas or cabrito, but we need the social benefits. A good goat will come up instantly if you go outside and follow you around, and she won’t wander far from where food and companionship are…qualities which could be vital if we were hiding out or on the run.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 14th, 2010
4:37 pm
OMR, pasteurizing MILK does not prevent disease. The ONLY thing which needs to be done other than reasonable handling procedures is to have the cow tested for tuberculosis.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 14th, 2010
4:38 pm
Cooking meat, in particular, slows the process of decomposition.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 14th, 2010
4:53 pm
The real problem is that we are viewing life from different perspectives. OMR is brooding about the proletariate and the rest of us are rugged individualists who want to make our own choices for ourselves and don’t care what the masses do or where they get their food. We aren’t willing to trust our lives and our food supply to Monsanto. 86% of all Americans now live in cities, poor devils, and here at the Ring we tend either to live in the country or to work towards the day we can. We cook from scratch. We learn how to process and handle food safely. We take responsibility for our own actions. WE know what our animals have ingested, and our little girls aren’t going to develop sexually before their ages are in double digits because we don’t feed them chicken laced with hormones. We don’t swill products sweetend with corn syrup constantly, thus reducing our chances of becoming diabetic within twenty years. I’ll bet most of us have copies of Adelle Davis’ books. We’re big on laissez faire. If you can’t trust your food source, get another one. You certainly can’t trust regulations and inspectors!
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 14th, 2010
4:54 pm
Th’ hell you say there is no bill before Congress to keep us from growing and processing our own food and using heritage seeds! Look up the Food “Safety” Act.
Oldmanriver says:
August 14th, 2010
7:46 pm
Linda,
I skimmed through that bill and I cant find where it says that. Could you provide me with the exact language in that bill which addresses those things?
Kurt,
I agree with Linda on the milking goats. Smaller animals are usually more efficient given the same supply of food as larger animals. Also I did a little research on the powdered milk. some of the replacement powdered milk contains protein from various sources…kind of a scary phrase. Thats probably what I am used to as its also the cheapest lol Im sure thats what we bought. There are others that are made from real milk.
Oldmanriver says:
August 14th, 2010
7:57 pm
Linda,
There are a lot more diseases out there to be worried about than just TB. Im including a page from the Ohio State Extension Service. As I stated before there is nothing wrong with people on the farm consuming their own products. The chance for infection grows as the distance from the producer to the final consumer grows.
http://www.extension.org/pages/Dairy_Cattle_as_a_Source_of_Food_or_Waterborne_Illness
Kurt says:
August 14th, 2010
7:59 pm
I know, I know. But she wants mini moo, or as she puts it “baby mooer”. She don’t want a goat. What can I say? She takes after me: physically 31, but refuses to grow up completely lol. Oh yea, she wants mini neigh, and maybe mini baa. I try to talk her into mini oink as well, cause they is delish. You should see some of the looks… ROTFL. My first choice would be to get outa Dodge. My second would be a small place in the hills. Alas, neither seems destined to be, family responsibilities. Maybe if I ever did manage to get everybody out into the hills, perhaps a goat would change her mind by loving on her.
Have to wonder, just cause my mind is sadistic that way, what kind of anaphylactic shock would they go into if I herded squirrels and sea gulls for food lol.
Oldmanriver says:
August 14th, 2010
8:00 pm
Linda,
I want you to think about your statement
“Cooking meat, in particular, slows the process of decomposition.”
What are the agents of decomposition? What kinds of other problems can these agents cause in a living body?
Kurt says:
August 14th, 2010
8:06 pm
People is commenting as I reply lol.
OMR, I looked at the bag, and it looked like it was made mostly from whey. I made sure to look it over, especially after I found antibiotics on some of the labels. That’s part of the whole discussion, I too look into what I feed my kids and me. I don’t trust any government agency to look after our health better than myself, and at least one of my kids is even more so. I have not found any government agency selling real powdered milk anywhere, let alone cheaper than this milk replacement. And I was not intending it as a milk replacement, just as a protein supplement by adding it into foods. I still have not yet tried it. Like I said, I try to check things out for myself and I’m not done checking on this idea.
Oldmanriver says:
August 14th, 2010
9:29 pm
Kurt,
Try looking at Land O Lakes website they have powdered milk for sale there in bulk. The stuff we always use has a strange smell and taste (lol I always ate animal feed, extruded soybeans were the best of all) I dont remember what it was composed of, Ill try to remember to ask my brother. The USDA used to buy milk to support prices. This milk was made into cheese and some of it was dried. This stuff was sold cheap or given away to schools at certain times depending what the price of milk was. I knew a guy that had a large veal operation and he used to buy it because it was high quality and cheap. Im not surprised that they dont do it anymore.
Oldmanriver says:
August 14th, 2010
10:19 pm
All,
Im not saying to put blind faith and eat whatever the Gov says is ok to eat. I am saying that the basic BMP’s put in place do a very good job of limiting the amount of food poisonings that happen every year. Its a system that has been in place for a very long time and it has a track record of reducing disease outbreaks. I guess if that makes me a socialist so be it. Few if any one on this site has lived at a time when this country did not follow these practices. Unless you have been milking your own cows or goats your entire life if you drank milk you drank processed milk. It does not seem to be limiting the average age of the average person. As far as growth hormones in Chickens…I know for a fact that is not allowed. The only animals allowed to be treated with hormones are cattle and sheep. We used to use them in our fat cattle but then we just quit cause the implants have very little payback on them. If you are lucky you will make an extra 2-3 bucks a head if you use the implants. That doesn’t include the work of running the animals through the chute. I dont know that anyone has an exact explanation of the earlier onset of puberty in females. There are several different theories.
I agree everyone here is an individualist, thats a good thing. There is nothing wrong with individualism. I just dont see everything that the government does as a bad thing. I like being able to go to the store or restaurant and not have to worry too much about getting sick from eating it. I know its not perfect but its a lot better than it was in the late 1800s. When people work together they can have a much better society than societies where they dont work together. Actually I would like someone to tell me of a society that was made up of rugged individualists who did everything by themselves and did not cooperate? You cannot thrive as an individual.
Oldmanriver says:
August 14th, 2010
11:26 pm
Here is a link to the bills you can read them for yourselves;
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h111-875
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=s111-510&tab=summary
It actually seems like it would be helpful to farmers in that foreign producers are subject to the same rules if they plan on importing product into the usa.
Here are some links which discuss the bills:
http://www.localharvest.org/blog/1706/entry/myths_facts_h_r_875
http://www.foodandwaterwatch.org/food/foodsafety/background-on-h-r-875/
http://www.snopes.com/politics/business/organic.asp
http://www.ethicurean.com/2009/04/03/food-safety/
Kurt says:
August 15th, 2010
1:08 pm
OMR, I have gone to their website and not found anything even remotely like powdered milk. I can find powdered milk on various sites, but it is very expensive for what I want, and costs a bunch to ship. I’m not willing to use the instant because the process destroys most of the nutritional value. Things like the some of the protein being changed into something closer to plastic than food. I have a source near here for 55lb bags of non instant powdered milk, and I’ve bought it(Store named Cash and Carry if anybody else wants some). It was $110 the last bag I bought a couple months back, plus the gas to drive 50 miles. This calf milk replacement is less than half that, and it looks like it is made from whey. I’m not considering it as a replacement beverage for milk, but more as a supplement to add to things like mac and cheese, along with the usual milk, to add protein. I have read the label on it to look for things I didn’t like. That’s how I found the antibiotics in the others on the shelf. I’m doing due diligence, far better than any government agency. I’m still checking it out, and if it looks ok, I probably will buy 1 bag, and see if it is something that we can use. If the taste is bad, we have a neighbor who just bought a baby cow that we can give it to.
Being a rugged individualist does not mean you can not cooperate. Seems to me that the US was founded by a collection of individualists, many of whom were rugged. They still cooperated, and thrived. Same goes for the “wild west”. The problem with having a government agency protect us is that people go to sleep and don’t do their own due diligence. People thought that the government was protecting them by regulating the financial sector, so they didn’t do their own due diligence and look what happened in 2007-08. They went to sleep, bought a bunch of garbage that should not have been in existence even, and many lost a lot of money. If they had been awake, thinking about what they were investing in, fewer people are likely to have gotten hurt so bad. There will always be a problem, you can’t regulate problems out of existence. If you are awake to them, you stand a far better chance than if you are lulled into sleep by a government agency “protecting you”.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 16th, 2010
2:49 pm
Extruded soy beans? I’m probably glad I know, unless that’s TVP, which I don’t eat.
Linda Brady Traynham says:
August 16th, 2010
2:51 pm
You tell it, Kurt! Whatcha still doin’ in the land of the fruits an’ th’ nuts when you could be living in Idaho, Utah, Arizona, or Texas?
Oldmanriver says:
August 16th, 2010
3:42 pm
Linda,
Lol honest extruded soybeans are the best! They kinda taste like corn nuts. Its basically raw soybeans run through a press (extruder) it only gets out about 50% of the oil but it makes them nice and hot. When they would get shipped to the farm they would be steaming. I would eat it by the handfull while I was grinding feed lol
Kurt says:
August 17th, 2010
12:07 pm
Land of fruits and nuts? I thought that was California lol. I’m stuck farther north than that, not too far from Lynne I think. This is more like liberal zombie central. And if I could leave, I would have been gone a long time ago. But I have a couple daughters in this area who need me. I keep arguing with the Lord, and the answer seems to always be “what would happen to them?”
Extruded soybeans? I’ve never heard of it either. I have tried TVP, including some of the fake jerkys, but it has never been something I really like. I’d eat it in a pinch, but the taste is…… not the best lol. I’ve tried roasted soy nuts as well. Broke a couple teeth on them, but they were not too bad. This something that is sold over the net, or does it have to be produced locally, or…..?
Oldmanriver says:
August 18th, 2010
8:06 am
Extruded soybeans are just soybeans that are forced through a very small hole. This is an animal feed product. Im not sure that many places sell it anymore. An extruder is basically an auger where the casing becomes smaller and smaller. The discharge side of it is a small hole that can be changed in size depending on what you want to come out. The beans are forced into a smaller and smaller space and forced out through the small opening. It grinds them up and heats them up enough so that the amino acids become avaiable. Not all the amino acids in raw soybeans are avaiable to animals that eat them so soybeans have to be processed some how to make this happen. This is why asian nations eat tofu which is basically decomposing soybean curd. Soybean meal is the most commonly used protein feedstock in the USA. When balancing feed rations for livestock 48% soybean meal is the standard.
Im not realy sure what TVP is, I assume its total vegitable protein? I used to work in a place that made something like that from wheat gluten. They had all different kinds of shapes and sizes that it could be made in and it had no taste. so whatever sauce you put on it would have to contain all the taste. Not really my cup of tea either.
Kurt says:
August 18th, 2010
1:31 pm
Kewl, learn something new everyday. Specially if ya hang out in here lol. This is sold mostly as an animal feed then? It might be available in this area as there are a sizable population of mooers around, and at least one feed store that I have found.
Close, TVP means textured vegetable protein. It is used for many things, including as a meat substitute. It’s real big around here because there are a lot of 7th Day Adventists in the area and they are mostly vegetarians. But you can get it about anywhere, and it is supposed to be healthy for you. I’m just not real big on the taste is all.
Oldmanriver says:
August 19th, 2010
5:38 am
I had always thought about packaging extruded soybean meal as a snack for humans. Seriously its so good. Its greasy, kinda has a peanut buttery taste. Crunchy. perfect snack food. There are PTO driven extruders a person can buy..small units.
Textured Vegetable Protein…lol it just sounds like soylent green
Kurt says:
August 20th, 2010
5:55 pm
“Textured Vegetable Protein…lol it just sounds like soylent green”
Yea, and tastes almost as good :p
I gotta go find that movie again, and Silent Running. Decent old movies that nobody ever hears about anymore lol.
Oldmanriver says:
August 25th, 2010
2:42 pm
LOL yeah those are classics. Ill never forget “soylent greeen iss made offf peeeple!”
Lynne says:
September 1st, 2010
8:46 pm
Gosh OMR how many should die because the are to dumb to do research on the food they are eating? Well these people are getting no education in schools. Probably not enough time and may cut into sex education calles about “fisting”. Funny Europe has no problem with local food or food purity laws. The Beers, wines and cheeses are subline and aren’t pasteurized. But that’s okay OMR, by the way how are those eggs?